Here to have a civilized debate.

[Earl]

Katrin, I'm in agreement with you. Although I work out at a health club, I know that I won't ever become a sports fan; and I'll always support this website, which gives some people a voice they would not be allowed to have anywhere else. But since I'm now struggling with major health issues in my life, I don't feel like arguing for argument's sake (although I'm still capable of losing my temper). And I can't hate an entire group of people, although some of its individual members are lousy human beings (which is true of every group of people). When I was in the eighth grade through high school, I saw an incompetent psychologist who was no help to me at all about a psychological problem I've had for most of my 59 years. After I had dropped out of college just before I turned 21, I started seeing a psychiatrist, who likewise was no help at all. Two falls ago a friend of mine, a sociology professor who happened to have played university football and never bullied anyone in his life, told me in a single e-mail what had been going on in my life. In a single e-mail, he helped me more than the psychologist and the psychiatrist did in years of phony therapy. He is one of the kindest persons I've ever met. He's even critical of some aspects of the sports culture. By the time I was a senior in high school, I was extremely prejudiced against football players, although I was never hateful. But over the years I've learned to judge people as individuals.

[Fat Man]

All I'm saying is that, the people in those African villages who are dying of AIDS need a Hell of a lot more than bicycles to peddle 15 miles to their AIDS Clinic.

In the light of their tragic situation and all that they REALLY ABSOLUTELY NEED, well, the bicycles is sort of like . . . . .



Well . . . . . you know.

[Skul]

Damn it to hell! I leave the site for a couple of days and look what happens.

What the hell is wrong with you guys?

It's late over here, but I'm going to be coming on here ASAP tomorrow!

[greencom]

Andy,
Don't get me wrong, you seem like a great guy but my disdain of sports and the bullshit, unfairness, arrogance, brutality etc. that goes along with a lot of it will always exist. I think you would see things a bit differently had you been victimized by jocks and their mindless cruelty, it's something you never had to deal with so it probably was something you were never aware of in your world, but it was in mine and other members of this forum. Gook luck on your mission.

Greencom

[Fat Man]

Andy, although you're a jock, you seem like a nice guy.

And I'm actually sorry that you say you're leaving the forums.

I actually like you, but I do feel the need to point out some shortcomings every now than then.

You said in one of your posts that you also like reading about Astronomy and about Galileo.

So, anybody who likes Astronomy can't be all bad!

I was merely asking some legitimate questions.

I just don't feel that donating only bicycles is sufficient when so much more needs to be done.

OK?

[Earl]

Since I started posting in January of last year, I have found four or possibly five new friends through this website, three of whom I now frequently call long-distance on my cell phone. Iâ??ve corresponded with the other two by means of PMs and/or e-mails. Since the time I was graciously contacted first by e-mail, Iâ??ve used the PM feature of the forum to try to get to know other members better and to hopefully start friendships. I want to thank Ray and the others who were instrumental in getting this website started. I have benefited from this website in ways that I (or Ray) never would have imagined. I say this because I fear that I might lose a friend or two when they read this post, which has not been pleasant for me to write. You all no doubt have heard the tired cliché of the father speaking to his naughty child whom heâ??s about to spank. â??Son, this is going to hurt me more than itâ??s going to hurt you.â? Well, itâ??s true.

Iâ??m appalled and disgusted at the way Andy has been treated at this website. Please understand that Iâ??m not mad at any particular member of this website, but I am mad at the way Andy was treated. In fact, I would say that it was disgraceful. As I present specific objections to the way that Andy was treated, I will avoid pointing anyone out by name. My intention is not to embarrass anyone, but this needs to be said.

When Andy identified himself as a college football player who had chosen nursing as a major, this fact alone should have caused all of you to stop and think. What former high-school bully would choose nursing as a major? (Incidentally, many high-school bullies are not â??jocks.â? Bullies come in all sizes and shapes, and some bullies are girls.) I could see a college-bound bully choosing to be a pre-med major because of the high pay and prestige that doctors receive, but nursing? When I was a teenager, the very idea of men working as nurses was unheard of. Machismo historically has viewed certain vocations as being off limits to â??realâ? men, and one of those vocations has been nursing. Andyâ??s choice of nursing as a major shows that he is a caring person.

When Andy posted for the first time at this website on the Guestbook page, I sent him an e-mail. In his friendly response he said that he had been concerned how the other members might react to him. Before he posted for the last time in the forum, we had another e-mail exchange in which he said that off the football field he was like a gentle giant. Andy was not objecting to any of us for not being sports fans, and he does not disrespect anyone who doesnâ??t share his love of football. He only wanted to object to the negative stereotyping of football players, since he did not fit the stereotype himself. Growing up as a boy who had no interest in sports, I knew what it was like to be subjected to a negative stereotype that did not at all represent the sort of guy I was; so, I know how Andy feels. The fact is that Andy has been given a bum rap at this website.

At the time Andy began posting on the Guestbook page, one of our members was being subjected to insults and ridicule by our then-newest forum member SPORTS ROCK., who undeniably was abusive. Under the forum rules, this insulted forum member was entitled to respond in kind to SPORTS ROCK. But when he saw that Andy and Tom (who was a fellow gridironpalace website member) were posting on the Guestbook page, he transferred his anger to them and insulted them repeatedly in ridiculously obscene ways. (Incidentally, all that he succeeded in doing was to open himself up to more ridicule from SPORTS ROCK.) Andy and Tom were not being abusive at all, yet this insulted member was subjecting them to insults simply because they were athletes.

Andyâ??s desire to do charitable work was greeted with cynicism. Going to Africa is a far cry from going to a local hospital for the latest photo op. Spending time in a foreign country helping others is not a vacation. When I was in high school, I participated in volunteer work during the summer before my senior year. I spent several weeks in Guatemala. I counted the days when I would be returning home. Andy has said that he wants to do overseas work in the Peace Corps when he graduates from Montana State. Is this the sort of work that a self-centered jerk would want to do? As far as the charitable organization that Andy and his father support, do they have a billion-dollar budget? Are they in a position to provide for every single need of these Africans?

Even though Andy has been called a â??nice kid,â? he still has been spoken to in a patronizing manner. â??You think like a jock.â? How would any of us know how anyone theyâ??ve just met thinks? The assumption is made that Andy must think a certain way just because heâ??s an athlete.

One of the forum members also said that sports are authoritarian. Iâ??m sorry, but thatâ??s nonsense. Thereâ??s no denying that some football coaches have an authoritarian approach in the way they coach, but that does not mean that all of their players are going to adopt the same mindset. During the Cold War, Eastern bloc athletes chafed and suffered under Communism just as much as their fellow citizens. I recently read about an East German soccer player who defected to West Germany, where he was eventually murdered by agents of the secret police of the â??German Democratic Republic.â? Most of you probably will not recognize the following names of political leaders (past and present) of the liberal left in this country: Quentin Burdick, Ramsey Muniz, Bob Gammage, Wendell Anderson, John Culver, and his son Chet (who is the current Governor of Iowa). With the exception of Anderson (who was an Olympic hockey player), these men played college football. Although libertarians might disagree, liberals at least donâ??t have the image of being authoritarian.

I am not a sports fan waiting to come out of the closet, and I will always support this website. But if all we do is fall back on exaggerations and stereotypes, then we run the risk of becoming the mirror image of Samdaman and his ilk. (I didnâ??t insert the â??Madâ? Smilie after â??Samdamanâ? this time, because Iâ??m being perfectly serious.) When I was young, I was just as prejudiced against â??jocksâ? as any member of this forum; but over the years Iâ??ve learned to view people as individuals, not as members of groups. All I try to do is treat people the way that I would want them to treat me.

[Fat Man]

Good evening Earl.

Yeah, I guess sometimes I do need to learn not to be such a bitch.

It's just that donating 8 year old bicycles is not enough.

They could donate at least one van to use as an ambulance. It doesn't have to be a new one, but at least one van so the medical staff can visit the African villages to take care of AIDS patients or to take them back to the clinic, because many of them are too sick and too weak to peddle a bicycle 15 miles to the nearest AIDS Clinic.

That's why I said that he still thinks like a jock.

Not everyone of them can peddle a bicycle, and some are even too weak to even get up out of bed.

How are they suppose to get to the AIDS Clinic?

And when I said that both Andy And Tony were acting authoritarian, it was because they came in here presuming to act as board moderators, criticizing our style of posting.

It's been my experience, that most people in sports, even those who are nice guys who are not bullies, they are still bossy and wanting to lay down a bunch of rules.

So, yeah! Sports is an authoritarian endeavor. Sports does not encourage free thought, unlike a science course in Astronomy.

Well, actually, sports does encourage some special freedoms and extra privileges for athletes.

Football players are not required to abide by the laws of the land. They can park their $100,000 dollar Hummers all day long in a 15 minute parking zone and never have to worry about having their vehicles towed away or even getting a ticket, and they can even commit rape and go unpunished.

But PE coaches do not allow academic or intellectual freedom in our schools. It's because of sports and PE that our schools have become more authoritarian.

I'm sorry. My apologies to Andy.

But if I were dying, I would want a ride in an ambulance or a vehicle of some kind to get to a clinic or a hospital, and not have to peddle there 15 miles on a bicycle and perhaps collapse and die before I can make it.

Yeah! Bicycles!!!

I'm sorry, but that is typical jock thinking!

[Ray]

Since I started posting in January of last year, I have found four or possibly five new friends through this website, three of whom I now frequently call long-distance on my cell phone. Iâ??ve corresponded with the other two by means of PMs and/or e-mails. Since the time I was graciously contacted first by e-mail, Iâ??ve used the PM feature of the forum to try to get to know other members better and to hopefully start friendships. I want to thank Ray and the others who were instrumental in getting this website started. I have benefited from this website in ways that I (or Ray) never would have imagined. I say this because I fear that I might lose a friend or two when they read this post, which has not been pleasant for me to write. You all no doubt have heard the tired cliché of the father speaking to his naughty child whom heâ??s about to spank. â??Son, this is going to hurt me more than itâ??s going to hurt you.â? Well, itâ??s true.

Iâ??m appalled and disgusted at the way Andy has been treated at this website. Please understand that Iâ??m not mad at any particular member of this website, but I am mad at the way Andy was treated. In fact, I would say that it was disgraceful. As I present specific objections to the way that Andy was treated, I will avoid pointing anyone out by name. My intention is not to embarrass anyone, but this needs to be said.

When Andy identified himself as a college football player who had chosen nursing as a major, this fact alone should have caused all of you to stop and think. What former high-school bully would choose nursing as a major? (Incidentally, many high-school bullies are not â??jocks.â? Bullies come in all sizes and shapes, and some bullies are girls.) I could see a college-bound bully choosing to be a pre-med major because of the high pay and prestige that doctors receive, but nursing? When I was a teenager, the very idea of men working as nurses was unheard of. Machismo historically has viewed certain vocations as being off limits to â??realâ? men, and one of those vocations has been nursing. Andyâ??s choice of nursing as a major shows that he is a caring person.

When Andy posted for the first time at this website on the Guestbook page, I sent him an e-mail. In his friendly response he said that he had been concerned how the other members might react to him. Before he posted for the last time in the forum, we had another e-mail exchange in which he said that off the football field he was like a gentle giant. Andy was not objecting to any of us for not being sports fans, and he does not disrespect anyone who doesnâ??t share his love of football. He only wanted to object to the negative stereotyping of football players, since he did not fit the stereotype himself. Growing up as a boy who had no interest in sports, I knew what it was like to be subjected to a negative stereotype that did not at all represent the sort of guy I was; so, I know how Andy feels. The fact is that Andy has been given a bum rap at this website.

At the time Andy began posting on the Guestbook page, one of our members was being subjected to insults and ridicule by our then-newest forum member SPORTS ROCK., who undeniably was abusive. Under the forum rules, this insulted forum member was entitled to respond in kind to SPORTS ROCK. But when he saw that Andy and Tom (who was a fellow gridironpalace website member) were posting on the Guestbook page, he transferred his anger to them and insulted them repeatedly in ridiculously obscene ways. (Incidentally, all that he succeeded in doing was to open himself up to more ridicule from SPORTS ROCK.) Andy and Tom were not being abusive at all, yet this insulted member was subjecting them to insults simply because they were athletes.

Andyâ??s desire to do charitable work was greeted with cynicism. Going to Africa is a far cry from going to a local hospital for the latest photo op. Spending time in a foreign country helping others is not a vacation. When I was in high school, I participated in volunteer work during the summer before my senior year. I spent several weeks in Guatemala. I counted the days when I would be returning home. Andy has said that he wants to do overseas work in the Peace Corps when he graduates from Montana State. Is this the sort of work that a self-centered jerk would want to do? As far as the charitable organization that Andy and his father support, do they have a billion-dollar budget? Are they in a position to provide for every single need of these Africans?

Even though Andy has been called a â??nice kid,â? he still has been spoken to in a patronizing manner. â??You think like a jock.â? How would any of us know how anyone theyâ??ve just met thinks? The assumption is made that Andy must think a certain way just because heâ??s an athlete.

One of the forum members also said that sports are authoritarian. Iâ??m sorry, but thatâ??s nonsense. Thereâ??s no denying that some football coaches have an authoritarian approach in the way they coach, but that does not mean that all of their players are going to adopt the same mindset. During the Cold War, Eastern bloc athletes chafed and suffered under Communism just as much as their fellow citizens. I recently read about an East German soccer player who defected to West Germany, where he was eventually murdered by agents of the secret police of the â??German Democratic Republic.â? Most of you probably will not recognize the following names of political leaders (past and present) of the liberal left in this country: Quentin Burdick, Ramsey Muniz, Bob Gammage, Wendell Anderson, John Culver, and his son Chet (who is the current Governor of Iowa). With the exception of Anderson (who was an Olympic hockey player), these men played college football. Although libertarians might disagree, liberals at least donâ??t have the image of being authoritarian.

I am not a sports fan waiting to come out of the closet, and I will always support this website. But if all we do is fall back on exaggerations and stereotypes, then we run the risk of becoming the mirror image of Samdaman and his ilk. (I didnâ??t insert the â??Madâ? Smilie after â??Samdamanâ? this time, because Iâ??m being perfectly serious.) When I was young, I was just as prejudiced against â??jocksâ? as any member of this forum; but over the years Iâ??ve learned to view people as individuals, not as members of groups. All I try to do is treat people the way that I would want them to treat me.

I respect your opinion and can even understand it. I agree with you on several points. But I don't think anyone here has anything to apologize for. The big sign up front says THE INTERNATIONAL I HATE SPORTS CLUB. Everyone who can read knows what they're getting into. If you invited this person in, is it really our fault that we didn't behave as you might like?

In my opinion, this person, "Andy", IS a classic example of passive-aggressive behavior. If you've never been a victim of passive-aggression you might not understand its nature --the persistent "you have a good point and I respect your opinion but I'm right". repeat repeat repeat. The lack of expected animosity confuses most people and they accept whatever this seemingly agreeable person has to say. Sometimes the people using this tactic don't even know they're doing it. They've just stumbled onto a formula that works for them and they stick with it. And they're shocked when their tactics fail as they did here.

I wonder how long I would have lasted if I ventured into the gridiron palace and persistently and politely insisted that sports fans were idiots. Not as long as Andy did here I bet. Or with as much support.

I am surprised that we have so many members who are so easily manipulated. I am amazed at the outrage expressed by members on behalf of a stranger with views that are counter to our forum. A few persistent and polite paragraphs were enough to turn some of us against our own long-time members.

I do understand the need for civility and admit that I still have much to learn when it comes to the value of moderation. And I regret that you feel the way you do --because I helped cause it. But this is the International I Hate Sports Club forum and I will continue to fight the scourge of sports fanaticism wherever it rears its ugly head and squash them like the bugs they are! In the immortal words of Sergey.... alright!

[Ray]

Good evening Earl.

Yeah, I guess sometimes I do need to learn not to be such a bitch.

awww.. you're not a bitch. You were just expressing your opinion. Last I heard, this was still America --well, for some of us --the ones who live here. That guy was annoying. But we've already wasted far too much time talking about him.

[Skul]

It's just that donating 8 year old bicycles is not enough.

They could donate at least one van to use as an ambulance. It doesn't have to be a new one, but at least one van so the medical staff can visit the African villages to take care of AIDS patients or to take them back to the clinic, because many of them are too sick and too weak to peddle a bicycle 15 miles to the nearest AIDS Clinic.

It's not like Andy's group is the only charity there is. And at least they're doing something. Also, it's not so people can "cycle to the clinic"; they'll be taught how to repair the bikes, giving them that skill so they can do that as a job.

Oh, but of course, because a jock is invovled, it's automatically wrong.

[Skul]

Yeah, good one, guys. Be assholes for no real reason and scare them off. Now look -- no activity.

Congratulations.

[greencom]

Yeah, good one, guys. Be assholes for no real reason and scare them off. Now look -- no activity.

Congratulations.

Hmmmmm,
Does that mean WE are the bullies now? Andy is a nice compassionate guy, not because he's a jock however, he's nice in SPITE of the fact that he's a jock. I wanted to tell him that. Don't worry Skul the world is full of sports lovers, they will wander in like the stray vermin they are.



Greencom

[Earl]

Skul, I commend you for speaking out.

Don't worry Skul the world is full of sports lovers, they will wander in like the stray vermin they are.

Greencom, just think of the nice sports fans who visit our website as puppies that have lost their way. (No disrespect intended to anyone. Just a little levity to hopefully alleviate the tension.)

[Fat Man]

Yeah, good one, guys. Be assholes for no real reason and scare them off. Now look -- no activity.

Congratulations.

Well, the main reason why I haven posted lately was because I had been having some computer problems.

My computer was running slow as shit, and one of my hard drives was giving me some problems.

I have two hard drives. On my Master C:Drive I run Windows XP Professional. My D:Drive is the Slave on which I download and save pictures, music files, and videos. My old Slave D:Drive was about to give out on me, so last Tuesday, I bought a brand new 400 gigabyte hard drive and transferred all of the files to my new hard drive.

Now, my computer runs much faster, and I'm going to be posting in the forums this evening.

Yes, I'm sorry Andy left.

He was civil and I have to admit, even though he's a jock, he is more civil and more polite than I am.

But I'm mad as all Hell.

Andy obviously comes from a far more privileged background than I do.

I didn't come from a rich or even a middle class family. We were somewhere between the lower end of middle class and the upper end of being poor. I was born up north in Minnesota. My parents were factory workers. But even though we are a poor family, we had a house full of books. I have always loved to read, and my mother encouraged me to read. She even taught me how to read and write before I even started school. I actually thought we were rich because we had a lot of books.

When I was only in the 3rd grade, I was already reading at the high school and adult level. Science has always been my favorite subject, especially Astronomy.

So, when I was in school, some of my teachers actually though that I was over-privileged because my reading level was so far advanced for my age, and so, some of my teachers thought it would be a good idea to restrict my privileges to where I had much fewer privileges than the other students in my class.

I have to be honest here.

I really don't give a flying fuck that Andy is a good guy. I resent him because of his privileged background. It appears that most athletes come from over-privileged backgrounds, while those of us who are physically handicapped in any way, we are more severely punished for minor indiscretions than the more able-bodied students.

After all, I was once suspended for failing to climb a rope in a gymnasium. Never mind that I had a crippled up left knee which was the result of a car accident at the age of 4 when I fell out of the car and busted my left knee on the pavement. Never mind that I had always walked with a limp and could not run. Never mind that I was making good passing grades in all of my academic subjects.

NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! That didn't matter at all. I was lousy at sports, so I got suspended for failure to climb a stupid rope in the gym.

And guess what. For handicapped kids, things are actually much worse now.

There are now boarding schools for children with both physical and mental, or emotional disabilities, where they are very severely punished.

Here are some You Tube links.

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! EVERYBODY PLEASE DO CHECK OUT THESE VIDEOS!

PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE! I'M BEGGING ON MY BIG FAT DIMPLED KNEES!

Brainwashing Children, Child Mind Control, School of Shock
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCWuPxtI ... o_response

Shocking Children!!! School of Shock, Judge Rotenberg, Psychology, Mind Control Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js2hNr2a ... re=related

These are about a boarding school run by someone named Mathew Israel in the state of Massachusetts. This is a boarding school for children with some types of mental or emotional disabilities such as ADD Attention Deficit Disorder or Autism or children with PTSD Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Here in this boarding school, children are punished with electric shocks for the slightest indiscretion. They are even given electric shocks for merely sneezing in class and asking for a tissue.

Yeah! Excellent therapy for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder!!! Electric shocks!!!

The children are not allowed to socialize or even talk to each other or talk to any of the staff members. They are punished by being forced to drink vinegar with hot Tabasco Sauce. These kids are fed mashed potatoes with dried liver powder.

If the kids misbehave they are given electric shocks, and if they retreat from the misbehavior they are still given electric shocks. So, it makes no difference if the kid misbehaves or promises to behave, they are still given electric shocks for both obedience and disobedience.

Another words, if you disobey, your are punished with electric shocks.

And if you obey, you are rewarded with electric shocks!!!

I call it, Damned If You Do And Dammed If You Don't Aversion Therapy!

There is also sleep deprivation and sometimes food is with-held.

So, here in the good ol' USA, innocent children are being tortured.

Even in our regular elementary and high schools, students with disabilities are more severely punished than the more able-bodied students, and athletes are not even punished at all.

Here is another short video made by someone who was a student at the boarding school.

Shut down the Judge Rotenberg Center! wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PUGM45e ... re=related

She is so angry that she want's to kill Mathew Israel, the scum-bag who ran the boarding school,and she says that she won't even care if she spends the rest of her life in prison for killing him.

So, the USA is not a Democracy. The USA is a Fascist country where we have an over-privileged class, the athletes, and an under-privileged class, people with physical and mental handicaps.

The more I think about those videos, about those innocent children being tortured with electric shocks, the angrier I get. I'm so pissed off I'm seeing red!

As I had mentioned before, when I was 17 years old, I spent three week in a mental hospital where I was beaten and raped!

NO! I don't want to have a civilized debate! I WANT TO DECLARE WAR!!!

And I don't take prisoners!!!

NO! I think I'm going to take back what I said earlier. I'm really NOT sorry that Andy has left us. I don't give a fuck how nice he is. He's an over-privileged jock! I can't even stand looking at his avatar with that proud and smug look on his face.

The USA is so fucking morally corrupt. We're no better that so many third world countries. In fact, we are another third world country. We throw children away like garbage. I should know. In school, I was rejected and thrown away like a piece of trash because of my crippled left knee, just because I was lousy at sports.

So, he going to teach the Africans how to build bicycles! WOOOOOPEEEEEEE!!!

How about books! Teach them science and math so they can leave those isolated villages and go on to college somewhere and learn some technical skills.

How about helping the under-privileged children right here in the USA who are being tortured with electric shocks in our boarding schools!

Yeah, Andy did say he was going into nursing. GOOD FOR HIM! I'm very glad. Perhaps he can give nursing aid to those innocent handicapped children right here in the USA who have been tortured in the boarding schools.

While Andy is drinking a cold beer, these children are being forced to drink vinegar with hot Tabasco Sauce.

While Andy is having a T Bone stake or a sirloin stake, these children are eating mashed potatoes with dried liver powder sprinkled on it.

While Andy is probably enjoying a good sex life, these children are not allowed to socialize with each other or even talk to each other.

While Andy can get a good night's sleep, these children get woke up in the middle of the night with electric shocks!

Andy comes in here and brags about giving away bicycles.

BIG FUCKING HAIRY DEAL! HE CAN TAKE HIS FUCKING BICYCLES AND SHOVE THEM UP HIS FUCKING ASS!

Wow! He's a real goody-two-shoes!

Yeah! Bicycles! Like, whoop-de-fuckin'-doo!!!

NO! I'm really not sorry that Andy and Tony no longer post here.

FUCK THEM! THEY CAN BOTH GO TO WHERE THE WOODBINE TWINETH AND THE ICE MAN VENTURE NOT!!!

YEAH! I'M A BITCH! I'M A BIG FAT BITCH!!!

[Skul]

YEAH! I'M A BITCH! I'M A BIG FAT BITCH!!!

And you've also gotten a warning.

Andy is not over-privileged, he comes from a middle-class family. Like I said, at least he's actually doing something. Are you?

He doesn't have the money or the resources, he has those bikes and he's doing what he can. You want them to have books, you donate them!

We've let you guys get away with a lot on here, such as swearing, etc, but now I'm getting really stressed by all of this!