a PM left by Earl at DU

[i_like_1981]

You don't have to apologise to this apocalypsehow guy. He's arrogant, he's self-centred, he has some sort of superiority complex and considers himself untouchable. He blocked you because he knows you're getting at something he doesn't want you to find out which validates all our views on these stuck-up sports fans who think they're the shit because they're good at throwing around some ball. You should go back and give him a piece of your mind. This guy doesn't deserve any consideration, and knowing that you've been blocked by this guy even though you haven't done anything objectionable or unjustified, you're well within your right to go and shout him down. Let him know that your views of arrogant jocks and sports fans have only been validated further by his conduct towards you.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[Earl]

Thanks for your encouragement, i_like_1981; but, unfortunately, no further communication with that guy is possible at this time, since he has put me on ignore. I regret that I didn't take a less confrontational approach (for the sake of my own standards), but I will concede that it probably wouldn't have made much, if any, difference in this case. His reaction probably still would have been negative.

And the extent of his reaction speaks volumes. Seems rather excessive to me. As I touched on several different issues, I probably did touch a sensitive nerve. As pertains to his boasting of his sexual conquests in high school (assuming he's not lying), I find it rather odd that someone like him, with his apparent contempt for women, professes to be a liberal when liberals today support the feminist movement (with which, incidentally, I agree or disagree, depending upon the issue). I would think that a guy like him would have no use for the feminist movement or any mindset that views women with some kind of respect. I find this sort of using of people to be repulsive. Speaking as a married man, I have no respect for men who exploit women in the most intimate way simply for self-gratification and for the purpose of entertainment. So, I never would have been impressed by apocalypsehow.

[i_like_1981]

Thanks for your encouragement, i_like_1981; but, unfortunately, no further communication with that guy is possible at this time, since he has put me on ignore. I regret that I didn't take a less confrontational approach (for the sake of my own standards), but I will concede that it probably wouldn't have made much, if any, difference in this case. His reaction probably still would have been negative.

I personally think the idea of putting someone on "Ignore" unless they're making threats or disturbing remarks to you is just stupid and implies that you're afraid of facing the truth the other person is presenting to you. Having read about your antics with apocalypsehow, I come to respect Cycloptichorn more. He didn't put me on Ignore back when I was posting in the able2know sports haters thread even though it was quite clear I was not going to back down from my anti-sports stance. A skilled debater does not ignore a person without justifiable reason, so in doing this, apocalypsehow has proven himself to be a poor debater as he can not handle any viewpoints which go against his own. I also dislike the idea of locking threads. There is always the possibility that someone is going to come back and add a new valuable point to that thread, even years after the last post - think of the potential additional information that is being lost through locking a thread. Anyways, returning to apocalypsehow, forget him. He is a waste of time and offers no possibility for debate. Perhaps you will come across a more open-minded sports fan elsewhere.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[Earl]

Don't worry, i_like_1981. I seek no further exchanges with apocalypsehow. As evidenced by the hostile message posted in his profile, he obviously has trouble with some of the other members of that website's forum. He has difficulty retaining any civility when he disagrees with someone, which clearly is a sign of either insecurity or just plain meanspiritedness. In contrast, the late conservative spokesman William F. Buckley, Jr., would debate liberal guests on his TV show Firing Line; but after the show was taped, they would often go out to eat dinner together. (I'm not endorsing political conservatism, as I have no ideological loyalties at this point in my life. I'm simply citing Buckley as an outstanding example of civility.) What's ironic about apocalypsehow putting me on Ignore so I can't even communicate with him via PM is that if he had not done so, he would have received an apology from me for being rude and confrontational. As I indicated previously, I did apologize via post in a thread where he had just recently posted; but I doubt that he has gone back to that topic to see if anyone responded to his post. So, it's his loss.

By the way, I have posted at another DU thread. I guess I changed my mind about leaving DU. But I doubt seriously that I'll run into our unpleasant actor again, considering just how large DU is. If I do and he acts like a jerk, I'll know what to do.

I also agree with you about DU locking their threads (and they do so in less time than a month). Granted, since they have so many members, they do have many threads. But so does able2know. They don't lock any of their threads. There are at least two archived (i.e., locked) DU threads to which I deeply wish that I could respond. It's frustrating to not be able to do so.

[Earl]

Upon reflection I must say that this was not one of my finer moments. I was confrontational and rude. It's so easy to lose one's temper and rant on the Internet. Oh, well ... you live and learn.

[i_like_1981]

I suppose that my reaction to the Ashes to Ashes forum's slight disdain of my posts was excessive as well. But I don't think that you've got anything to be sorry for, and that with his smug, cocky attitude, apocalypsehow did nothing to alleviate any tensions between you. Oh well. In my opinion, he's more to blame, but seeing as how he doesn't want to have a word of debate whatsoever with you, there is no way of knowing what exactly he's thinking. I still think that you were getting at an issue that he was afraid to talk about, and that's why he was coming up with all these accusations of stalking to try and derail any possibility of a challenging debate that might put him in a difficult position? You can't have the advantage in every debate, and it seems to me that this guy can't stand having his position challenged. I did make a profile on those forums but haven't used it thus far, but if I ever do get round to using it and have an altercation with him in a thread, I'll make sure to let you know.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[recovering_fan]

Upon reflection I must say that this was not one of my finer moments. I was confrontational and rude. It's so easy to lose one's temper and rant on the Internet. Oh, well ... you live and learn.

Hi Earl,

Firstly, I am very sorry to hear about how you're feeling. Please forgive yourself!

(If you are extremely remorseful right now, you might not want to read what I'm going to say next, because it's an argument for why you should not apologise to him.)

I just thought of something. (And it might just be an off-the-wall crazy thought that doesn't mean anything. I have many ideas like that. Some pan out, and others don't. Some of my ideas are so weird that people think I am joking when I am not.) What I would like to ask you, though, is this: were you ruder or were you more confrontational than the guy with whom you were talking? Here's the thing: if this guy is generally obnoxious towards people, and if you answered him in the same language that he generally uses towards other people, then how have you done anything wrong? You merely have played by the same rules of conduct that he has set down for the rest of the world to play by. They aren't the rules you and I like, but there rules that he has set forth. So I would ask: if this guy is such a hypocrite as to get angry at you for treating him in the same way as he treats everyone else, haven't you, if anything, done him and the other people in his life a service by confronting him? People like this guy need to wake up to the truth about themselves. (And maybe by calling him a non-liberal, you woke him up some?)

So anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm not trying to be cute.

As for me, I no longer bother to confront people like him. It's just too much effort. And the worst thing is that at the end of it I end up feeling sorry for people like him once I've beaten them. I now only enter into arguments with people I respect--with people from whom I think I might actually have something to learn, like yourself.

Cheers,
recovering_fan

[Earl]

I suppose that my reaction to the Ashes to Ashes forum's slight disdain of my posts was excessive as well. But I don't think that you've got anything to be sorry for, and that with his smug, cocky attitude, apocalypsehow did nothing to alleviate any tensions between you. Oh well. In my opinion, he's more to blame, but seeing as how he doesn't want to have a word of debate whatsoever with you, there is no way of knowing what exactly he's thinking. I still think that you were getting at an issue that he was afraid to talk about, and that's why he was coming up with all these accusations of stalking to try and derail any possibility of a challenging debate that might put him in a difficult position? You can't have the advantage in every debate, and it seems to me that this guy can't stand having his position challenged. I did make a profile on those forums but haven't used it thus far, but if I ever do get round to using it and have an altercation with him in a thread, I'll make sure to let you know.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

Hi, i_like_1981. Thanks for the kind words. Since I started posting in website forums during the early spring of last year, I've noticed that there is something about board messaging that tends to remove one's inhibitions. I've actually lost my temper at least five times, which is odd because I'm usually not short-tempered in real life. Now that you say it, apocalypsehow was a bit confrontational himself. As far as handling disagreements with anyone, the possibility of reconciliation or understanding seems to be far from his mind. He seems to have a tendency to mock other DU members with whom he disagrees on political issues, let alone the sports culture. I possibly may have raised more than one issue he did not want to discuss. Having just looked up a dictionary's definition of "stalk," I certainly don't believe that I was "stalking" him. Saying that I was "stalking" him really is a big stretch. I certainly wasn't hounding him. All I did was send him a single PM. I didn't flood him with PMs. I wish that all I had done was to ask him why he thought the other members were jealous of jocks and what proof he had that former high-school classmates of his were jealous of him at their 20-year reunion. But, then again, that approach would work only if he were a man of good will. Perhaps I still would have received a negative response. The reason why I wanted to address his comments in the first place is because I've noticed that whenever someone objects to the misconduct of school jocks in certain sports, the reaction of more than a few sports fans is to say, "Oh, you're just jealous." This, of course, doesn't even make sense. (Before I continue, I must inform the reader that I'm not making a generalization here. I'm merely referring only to those individuals who are either guilty or suspected of misconduct. I shouldn't even have to say this, but you know how some people are. And I mean people on both sides. ) I dare say that someone who criticizes, for example, bullying or objects to preferential treatment is not motivated by envy or jealousy; they are merely objecting to immoral or unjust conduct as a matter of principle. And if you ever choose to post at DU, i_like_1981, please let me know, especially if you need backup (in which case I'll try to not lose my temper, as I did with Cycloptichorn at able2know.org ).

Hi Earl,

Firstly, I am very sorry to hear about how you're feeling. Please forgive yourself!

(If you are extremely remorseful right now, you might not want to read what I'm going to say next, because it's an argument for why you should not apologise to him.)

I just thought of something. (And it might just be an off-the-wall crazy thought that doesn't mean anything. I have many ideas like that. Some pan out, and others don't. Some of my ideas are so weird that people think I am joking when I am not.) What I would like to ask you, though, is this: were you ruder or were you more confrontational than the guy with whom you were talking? Here's the thing: if this guy is generally obnoxious towards people, and if you answered him in the same language that he generally uses towards other people, then how have you done anything wrong? You merely have played by the same rules of conduct that he has set down for the rest of the world to play by. They aren't the rules you and I like, but there rules that he has set forth. So I would ask: if this guy is such a hypocrite as to get angry at you for treating him in the same way as he treats everyone else, haven't you, if anything, done him and the other people in his life a service by confronting him? People like this guy need to wake up to the truth about themselves. (And maybe by calling him a non-liberal, you woke him up some?)

So anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm not trying to be cute.

As for me, I no longer bother to confront people like him. It's just too much effort. And the worst thing is that at the end of it I end up feeling sorry for people like him once I've beaten them. I now only enter into arguments with people I respect--with people from whom I think I might actually have something to learn, like yourself.

Cheers,
recovering_fan

Hi, recovering_fan. Thanks for the kind words. You do make an interesting argument for why I should not apologize to him. I don't think you're being cute at all, and I appreciate what you say. As I pointed out to i_like_1981, that guy has been rude to other DU members. He seems to enjoy rubbing other people's noses in the dirt, so to speak, whenever he thinks he's won an argument with them. This is sad because the attitude should be to want to enlighten people, not just to boost one's ego by winning an argument. Is anyone ever right about everything all the time? Of course not. So, some people should have more humility for the sake of learning more about the world and broadening their outlook and awareness. An arrogant person is not a good student. I have to admit that I don't feel too remorseful about this little episode, especially considering more serious issues in my past (which is true in anyone's life). I must admit that aside from wanting to adhere to high standards, I do have a selfish reason for not losing my temper in a website's forum. On some of the occasions when I've lost my temper, I've also lost opportunities to make certain points that might even have caused the other person to reconsider his position, not to mention actually winning the argument; and I've regretted it. When you lose your temper, you don't think as clearly, which is essential for making a good argument. And this is important not for the sake of ego gratification, but for the purpose of proving why a particular stance is correct. Anyway, as I said before, I don't feel too remoresful, because it's simply not that big of a deal; but, again, thanks for the kind words.

I must say that when I first started posting at this website, I thought Smilies were stupid; and I was determined not to use them. But now I use them all the time, and I would use them even more frequently if there weren't a limit on the number that are permitted in a single post.

[i_like_1981]

Well, if you want my opinion, I find that it's quite fun to meet the odd unpleasant character on the internet and have an argument with them. Nothing quite beats the feeling of knowing that it shall expand no further than the digital realm and that you don't risk getting punched in the teeth for anything you say. There are some disadvantages to online communication but there are also some advantages. When people have arguments face-to-face in real life and things start getting unpleasant, it can result in violence or even death if it's that severe. Won't happen on the internet, though, as long as you make sure that your real world information isn't easily accessible to anyone. You can push the envelope further than you can in real life and go slightly further than you would if you were talking face to face with your opponent. I know that people say only a coward insults others from behind his computer but I'd rather be called a coward than risk getting a fist in the face. And it's why I laugh at the threats this website gets off the jocks it annoys, as they don't have any way of using their superior physical strength to any advantage on the internet. Geeks created the internet, and it is the geeks who flourish on here. Whereas in real life it's the excessively celebrated and revered jocks and sportsmen who get all the credit and respect. No wonder some of us prefer things on the web.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[Earl]

Strange that I have one more occasion to post in this topic. My own personal attitudes towards posting have evolved over the months. I certainly am not going to tell someone else how they should communicate with others on the Internet, but I now wish that I had approached apocalypsehow in a spirit of inquisitive friendliness. I think sometimes it helps to try to get people to consider why they believe what they believe and why they react the way they do. When such people are angrily confronted, they put up their defenses and lash back, instead of reconsidering their position. Granted, the reaction may have been the same, more or less; or he might not have reacted at all. Or perhaps I could have started a dialogue. Whatever the result would have been would not be any worse than the flame-off that actually occurred.

[najib_daho]

I think one of the sad things about life is that some people never ever learn or at least evolve. I was bullied at school - not physically but mentally and verbally. I think sometimes we are a bit too hard on oursleves on why we couldn't handle the situation at the time. I mean, we can look back now and we know the answers but what 14 year old has the answers? You learn the answers through experience - brutal, painful and soul destroying at times but you learn and become a better person because of it or it destroys you.

I always remember once that a former nemisis contacted me on friendsreunited - I was aghast and upset and angry - so I wrote him an email saying what on earth are you writing to me for? To reminicse about racially abusing me for nearly every day until I left the joint? (Well, I got expelled - thats another story) He was suprised and cited that the racist abuse was 'just a joke - I thought we were mates' and I told him to sod off.

A friend of mine gave me a book called 'The Elephant and the Twig' by a writer called Geoff Thompson. He wrote that though past experiences are painful - that forgiving your tormentors is an act that frees your own soul. Holding on to hate does nothing but destroy your own life - and I understood because I would think about these people who made my school life a misery - I used to get into rages thinking about the past and what people used to say and so it would make me angrier if they had a lassiez-faire attitude to it so to forgive them in my mind was the only way out of being consumed with hate for these people - because it came to a time where I didn't want to be consumed with hate anymore, I had enough. I wanted to get on with my life and try and be happy. I forgave not because of them but because of me - forgiveness was a truly selfish act.

It is besides the point if the same people tried it today it would end very badly for them, it matters not. It matters not if they still get some satisfaction out of what they did in the past - in fact, I would feel sorry for them that the highlight of their life happened at school nearly 25 years ago and they haven't grown as a person to see how badly they behaved. I forgave myself for being vunerable and not knowing the answers - sometimes we just don't have the answers and the problem overwhelms us - it is OK to admit that there are times we can't do what we want to do.

[Earl]

I really appreciate what you've said in this post, najib_daho. Although my adolescence wasn't exactly like yours, I know what you're talking about. When I was about the age of 15, my parents sent me to a clinical psychologist since I was being bullied (verbally) at school and my grades had fallen. The psychologist had cultivated a good reputation for himself; but he turned out to be abysmally incompetent, at least in the way that he treated me as a patient. He did not help me at all. In fact, I ended up being worse off for having seen him as a patient. If I had been more perceptive and had had self-confidence, I would have told my parents that he was a near-disaster -- as, indeed, he most certainly was. I won't go into all the details concerning the way he let me down as a patient of his.

Several years after I had stopped seeing him as a patient (at the end of the summer following my graduation from high school), I realized that my trust in him had been misplaced; and I realized just how incompetent he was. I held a grudge against him for decades. Mind you, my feelings of resentment were justified. I didn't actually hate him. I never wished him ill and never would have chortled if something bad had happened to him. But as I just said, I did carry a grudge against him.

Earlier this year I read an online article he had written about the father of a friend of his who had recently passed away (the father, not his friend). The father had been a Holocaust survivor who had been subjected to brutal victimization in a Nazi concentration camp. Coming from a religiously devout background, he determined that he was going to learn from the vicious mistreatment he was suffering and that if he survived, he would treat everyone he met with kindness. He even forgave the people of Germany for all the atrocities that his family had suffered, which (in my estimation) is truly amazing. My former psychologist said that this man was the kindest person he had ever met, a man who was honestly interested in other people and maintained a compassionate attitude towards them.

This article inspired me. I decided to put my grudge against my former psychologist aside. When I was still carrying the grudge, I felt a strong anger against him. But when I let go of my grudge, I actually felt liberated. I didn't actually forgive him, in the strict sense of the word. I didn't need to forgive him. He was incompetent, but I decided to just let go of the resentment. When I carried a grudge against him, I was giving him power over me. He wasn't worth it. Besides, perhaps over time he has learned from his mistakes. But even if he hasn't, I'm still better off.