A little open-mindedness...

[HanShotFirst]

I've been snooping around here for quite some time after I stumbled upon it while surfing the web. Never really had the initiative to post anything, but I today I decided that it was time to finally speak up.

Where to start...I'll begin by saying that I likely share the same interests and hobbies as you. I've always identified myself as some sort of a loner. I have friends sure, but more of a small group then anything. I keep up with my grades, I do my homework, and I especially enjoy reading. I like video games (Zelda: Orcarina of Time is hands down the best game of all time), and science fiction TV shows and movies (Futurama, Star Trek and it's many spin-offs, and of course I'm a big Star Wars fan). I probably haven't been bullied as much or as bad as some of you, but I have experienced it several times. I've been name called plenty, and I've had my fair share of pushes and shoves.

Now judging from this, you'd expect me to start ranting on how I'd want every single jock on the face of the Earth to somehow die a tragic death. But the thing is, besides what I've listed, I also enjoy sports. Maybe thats an understatement. I love sports. They're something I use to keep my mind off things. When I put on my hockey equipment and hit the ice...nothing else matters at the moment. My mind hits a moment of clarity. I do enjoy the competitiveness of it, but not to use it in a way that makes my love of the sport tarnished: the competitive edge it gives is a way for me (big emphasis on that word) to strive to be better, not for me to strive to be better then everyone else. I play all kinds of sports, and the same mentality applies to those.

I understand many of you have been bullied, and for that I honestly do feel bad. It's something that should not be tolerated. But I can't help but think many of you are taking it too far, because with the mentality that many of you have then I apply under the same banner of what you call "jocks". I consider myself a friendly person, and yes, I do consider myself somewhat of a nerd. But at the same time, many of you are making the possibility of simply liking sports as the most evil of all evils. I've read some of your posts, and it bothers me because then I was being included into that group. "I like sports, I watch and go to sporting events....but why am I evil?". I know I'll still get backlashed for saying this, as I've seen what some of you have said to people who have this same opinion. I am not denying that there are some people who use sports as a means of bullying. Just wanted to make that clear. But you would be surprised on how many good, whole hearted people do play sports, and are generally nice people.

[Fat Man]

Good afternoon HanShotFirst:

Let me be the first to welcome you to our anti-sports forum.

OK!

Once upon a time, many many years ago, there was a time when I didn't actually hate sports.

No, I didn't care for sports, but I didn't hate sports, I was merely NOT interested in sports.

I suggest you read my forum topic which I had titled . . .

THE HORSE THIEVES AMONG US!
http://www.sportssuck.org/phpbb2/viewto ... f=1&t=4425

After having read my topic, which is about my past experiences in school you will understand where I'm coming from.

Yes, I realize that NOT ALL sports fans are obnoxious bores and NOT ALL athletes are bullies, but unfortunately, most of them who I have known were obnoxious bores and bullies.

So, it was sports that taught me how to hate sports.

[Earl]

Greetings, HanShotFirst. I'm glad that you've chosen to post here. Those of us who support this website do not all think alike. Really, this forum is only a small group of guys (as well as a gal or two) expressing their views and opinions. We are not a social movement and don't pose a threat to anyone. And we're quite capable of disagreeing among ourselves.

I realize that I may be about to bore longtime readers of this forum, but I need to tell you just a little about myself so you will be able to understand my point of view and not make any assumptions about me that may not be true. I'm a happily married middle-aged guy with two children aged 23 and 20. I've never had an interest in sports, but for over two years I've been working with a personal trainer at a local health club on a bodybuilding program. As long as I'm physically able, there's no doubt that I will continue to work out at my health club since I am a confirmed gym rat.

I don't believe in hating people. I'm appalled at the misconduct of certain individuals, but I don't wish them ill. I don't believe in revenge. I believe in reconcilliation whenever possible. This doesn't mean that I'm not strongly opposed to bullying or other forms of mistreating others, because I do feel strongly about these issues. I've had a share of humility imposed upon me by the painful recognition of all the mistakes that I've made in my own life (not to mention my religious convictions); so, I don't go around thinking that I'm better than others.

When I graduated from high school in 1969, I had become prejudiced against football players because of the preferential treatment they had received and because some of them had been arrogant. But I soon learned about individual former players who did not fit the negative stereotype. Three years after graduating from high school, I learned that a leading liberal politician in the conservative state where I was residing (and still reside) had played football at a university. When he ran for Congress four years later, I drove over to his law office to drop off a check for $200 (if I remember correctly). He came out to greet me personally. He was a big guy over 6 feet tall. He even sent me a handwritten thank-you note addressed to me personally, which impressed me since most politicians use form letters (quite understandably, considering the large number of people they deal with). I'm able to see more diversity among football players and former football players that I wasn't able to see before. Today my friends include several guys who played football in high school, one of whom played at a university. They played a rough contact sport, but they're gentle guys who don't believe in machismo.

I have no problem with guys who enjoy sports, just as long as they don't put down guys who don't enjoy them. There is no doubt in my mind that many nonathletic boys are bullied simply for having no interest in sports. Even today there still are psychologists and other "authorities" who claim that any boy who shows no interest in sports should be suspected of having homosexual tendencies, which to me is a particularly vile stereotype. I don't think you'll ever catch any gruff from me, as we seem to be of the same mind. I can't say that this is true of everyone who supports this website, but I'm not the only one here who views athletes as individuals.

[HugeFanOfBadReligion]

Welcome to the forum HansShotFirst.

I think you overestimate our views and the extremity of our views. Most of us are not extreme (and even the few members of this site who do speak in extreme measures against sports are usually speaking figuratively and would not actually want all athletes to be killed), we view athletes as individuals, and we don't wish harm on sports fans and athletes, however what most of us are against are the few athletes who can't tolerate the fact that some people aren't interested in sports and the fact that some people don't have good athletic abilities. Just because you are an athlete doesn't make you a "jock", the kind of people that I am against. By my definition, a jock is an athlete who acts in any of the following ways: Stupidity, disregard for academia, torment towards peers due to unjustified reasons such as the victim's scholarly success or inability to play sports, association with the gang mentality of athleticism where the athlete and his team-mates commit crimes (and often get away with it because of the fact that they are athletes), belief that playing sports makes one a man, etc. Based on your post, I can tell that you are likely not a person who can be defined as my definition of a jock. Therefore I have no problem with your interest in sports. I have several friends who are athletes, and I have several foes who are athletes. The former are kind people who don't torment their nonathletic peers and are successful in their academic pursuits. I am good friends with several people like this, and I have respect for them. However to quote Bad Religion "While the former gets warmer, it's the latter that matters"; the former group are all immoral assholes who take pleasure in the pain of others, they consider it entertainment. They think they are superior to intelligent yet nonathletic students, and believe that they have the right to treat these students (I am one of these students) like crap, and for some reason they get away with it because they are athletes.

I have definitely noticed the existence of all of the actions I listed in what defines a jock. I have seen so many athletes who are complete idiots, a lot of them likely have IQ's that are only in the double digits. They receive poor marks in school, and they have limited knowledge of mathematics, science, languages, technology, the arts, and world events. They are blissfully ignorant. I've also been tormented by jocks in school for reasons that I don't know. Perhaps they don't like the fact that I have no interest in sports and don't play or watch them, perhaps they are jealous of my academic success (I don't mean to say this in a narcissistic way, I'm just saying that they do quite poorly in school while I am doing very well, and they likely realize the fact that they aren't going to go anywhere in life when highschool is over and they aren't under the roof of their parents). I also notice that the jocks like going into groups and doing very stupid things, often involving criminal actions. I've seen this with my own eyes, and I've also seen it in the news. And they always get away with it, even though anybody else would get in quite a lot of trouble for it. And it's just because they are athletes, and society looks up to athletes, and the school won't punish these jocks either because the school wants to have its star athlete on the football team so it can crush all the other schools in the games they have. And I've definitely noticed jocks who think they are more of a man than others because they're on the football team. But how can you be more of a man than someone?

Technically, you can't be more of a man than someone, you are either a male or a female, and that is not determined by what you do, but determined before you are born by simple genetics. Nobody can tell me I'm not a man, I know I am. I know I don't have to explain what thing makes someone a man, and because of that, I'm a man. I also have to shave my face regularly, and I'm only fifteen, and I know there aren't many females who have to do this. This is another indication that I'm a man. You're not a man because you throw a ball around, and you can't be more of a man than another male. Even if someone can be more of a man, it isn't determined by athletic ability. It is determined by things such as courage, integrity, and similar things. In terms of this kind of "being a man", a female could be more of a man than a male. A real man doesn't get in a group and beat on an unsuspecting and undeserving victim (this has happened to me quite a few times), a real man stands up for his friends and takes a stance against the assholes who are beating on the victim (I've also done this a good share of times, even though I've been attacked by groups before while everyone just stood by and watched. So much for "what goes around comes around"). And a lot of the so-called logic of the argument jocks use for being a man is that if you play football you are tougher than others. A lot of the people who have picked on me who act all tough are certainly not tough. In one of the few fair, one-on-one fights I've been in, the jock I fought was crying by the time a school staff member broke the fight up. Isn't he a tough guy? Yet when a group of people attack me, I continue my day afterwards not even close to tears. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with crying, it's just quite hypocritical in the case of these jocks when they cry. I'm lucky that I've never had a very terrible beating that required medical attention, they tend to just do enough right before they would get in trouble (even though they likely wouldn't be punished because they are athletes). Not all football players are the toughest people in the world. Many are not even remotely tough, and on top of that, they are pathetic cowards. And not all nonathetic men are physically weak. As Earl said, he has been working on a bodybuilding program for a while, and I'm sure he is physically a lot stronger than many jocks. For the past few weeks, I've been waking up at 5:30 AM three times a week to go to the school's weight room with a small group of friends to work out before school for an hour, and I feel like I've already made improvements, and I'm making much more progress than I've made from several years of being forced to play sports in PE class.

Sorry for rambling on and going off topic, but I felt I needed to write how I don't despise all athletes, but am against a certain type of immoral athlete, and why I dislike these jocks so much. Again, welcome to the forum, enjoy your stay. Unfortunately, most of the intelligent critics of this site have been temporary while our advocates usually stay for a while longer, but I welcome you here as long as you feel like posting, assuming you are a genuine critic (which I have no reason to doubt).

[Earl]

I am not denying that there are some people who use sports as a means of bullying.

Some? Well, I'm afraid that there are more than just a few. Athleticism has become THE standard of masculinity. Nonathletic boys are judged to be wimps or "fags." A formerly active member of this forum (SportsGuy92), who was a high-school football player, admitted that most of his teammates viewed the nonathletic guys at their high school as "fags." On the basis of what, I might ask.

On the other hand, you should be respected as an individual. Clearly, individuality should be respected. It's sad how so many teenagers for generations have been willing to categorize themselves into predictable stereotypes instead of being willing to think "outside the box."

[HanShotFirst]

It is a little sad that things like that do occur, and there is a big push in the social image of someone who is athletic as a superior person then someone who isn't, which isn't fair at all. There are some players on my team that do have a big ego, but a nice chunk of us don't share the same views. I'm so glad that things have been cleared up, because some of the way, for example, Fat Man's posts have been...it seemed that anyone with any sort interest in playing sports or any sort of association with sports is deemed evil between you guys. Maybe if he saw my stack of history books that I've grown to collect and read he'd think a little differently

[Earl]

I'm glad that we -- namely, you (as a participant in sports) and other members of this forum (those "on the other side," so to speak) -- have been having a civil exchange, instead of the verbal abuse and ranting that is so typical of a lot of board messaging. Speaking for at least most of the other members, I certainly don't consider a guy to be a bad person simply because he participates in a sport. We admire athletes who respect others. A friend of mine who is a deacon of my congregation played football when he was in high school. He's a rugged guy, but is also quite sensitive to the needs of others; and he doesn't view nonathletic boys as "effeminate." In fact, he rejects that view as nonsense. Many years ago when my sister was in college, she knew one of the athletes, who played on both the hockey team and the football team. He was a fierce competitor in the game, but off the ice rink and the gridiron he was a pacifist who could never be provoked into reacting with physical violence. (Yes, I know that some of you other members have already read this.) He had a problem with anger because he had been emotionally abused by his father. His pacifism, which had either a philosophical or a religious foundation, was his way of dealing with his anger. I wish that I had met the guy. In fact, I wish my sister had married him. I'm not making a stereotype in reverse; I'm just reminding myself that there are kind, decent athletes.

But the thing is, besides what I've listed, I also enjoy sports. Maybe thats an understatement. I love sports. They're something I use to keep my mind off things. When I put on my hockey equipment and hit the ice...nothing else matters at the moment. My mind hits a moment of clarity. I do enjoy the competitiveness of it, but not to use it in a way that makes my love of the sport tarnished: the competitive edge it gives is [my italics] a way for me (big emphasis on that word) to strive to be better, not for me to strive to be better then everyone else. I play all kinds of sports, and the same mentality applies to those.

I can easily relate to what you say. As I've already indicated, I've been working on a bodybuilding program. I wish that someone had introduced me to bodybuilding when I was a teenager. It would have helped me to develop self-confidence. School bullies seem to target boys who lack self-confidence. I love working out! Funny to say at my age of sixty that I've never been stronger physically, and I appear to be a lot younger. Aside from the need for exercise since I have type II diabetes, as I become physically stronger and more muscular, I feel better about myself. I intend to develop my physique as much as I can. But regardless of how strong I get, I'll never look down on guys who are physically weaker; and I won't view myself as more "manly" than them. There will always be physically weaker guys who are smarter or more spiritual or more courageous than I. This is something that the "jocks" HugeFan speaks of don't understand.

Despite our excentricities, you should know that you're among friends here. I think you know that now. Some of the comments here may seem extreme at first; but that is (in most cases, at least) because we react against the negative culture that is associated with certain school sports, but is not inherently a part of them. There is a sense in which some of us are not anti-sports.

Since you're interested in history (as you've indicated in your post above), you might be interested in reading The Bridge at Andau by James A. Michener about the courageous but doomed 1956 revolt of the Hungarian people against the Stalinist regime that had been imposed upon their unfortunate country. Of course, considering the horrors of Communist rule, it's not a pleasant read. As you would expect, it's extremely unpleasant.

For something a lot shorter (of course) to read, you might also be interested in a topic of mine entitiled "football player, Holocaust survivor" which I started in the "Off-Topic" board. Instead of having to go through several pages of the topic listings for that board to find it, I've provided a link to the first webpage of that topic.

http://www.sportssuck.org/phpbb2/viewto ... f=7&t=4387

[The Imperialist]

Some over-zealousness on our part for hating sports is good. It is what drives us forward. Sometimes a bit of tunnelvision is required so you do not stray from the path.

Welcome anyway.

[Earl]

For the past few weeks, I've been waking up at 5:30 AM three times a week to go to the school's weight room with a small group of friends to work out before school for an hour, and I feel like I've already made improvements, and [my italics] I'm making much more progress than I've made from several years of being forced to play sports in PE class.

This is a very good example of a simple fact that I have spent considerable time and effort at this and other websites about the need to reform mandatory "sports only" P.E. There must be an alternative to the failed "sports only" approach, which clearly does not work for nonathletic boys. Forcing nonathletic boys to "play" competitive sports in mandatory P.E. classes does not promote physical fitness, but only discourages those who are the most out of shape from ever starting and continuing any sort of exercise program. The "sports only" approach is often nothing less than institutionalized bullying. I speak from personal experience as a guy who went through mandatory "sports only" P.E. as a nonathletic boy, but who took up bodybuilding at a health club in my late fifties. I know what I'm talking about. Let the "old P.E." be retained as an ELECTIVE for the school athletes and other boys who want to participate in sports while providing genuine fitness classes for the nonathletic students who want them. Huge Fan makes my point. What keeps people from realizing that promoting sports (at the expense of nonathletic boys) is not the same as promoting wellness and physical fitness? When are some people going to wake up?

HugeFan, I'm proud of you for not letting the sports culture discourage you from bodybuilding. Congratulations!

[HugeFanOfBadReligion]

Thank you Earl. Although yesterday morning I found out that the teacher who supervises the weight room is now not going to open the weight room on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays because wrestling practices occur on those days and he needs to attend. How great. So now I can't do it three times a week as my friends and I had planned, and we'll have to change our schedules to do it on Tuesdays and Thursdays. This certainly not the first time sports have prevented me from doing something, although I'm still going to continue going to the weight room, it will just have to be twice a week.

[Earl]

HugeFan, you're to be commended for persevering in your determination to pursue bodybuilding as an exercise program. Pardon me for asking an obvious question, but are there any health clubs in your vicinity? The cost of joining a health club is minimal. And the health club where I work out is open 24 hours a day (which means, of course, that I can work out there at my convenience anytime). In the meantime, don't be discouraged. Again, you're to be commended.

Isn't it interesting how often the sports culture manages to discourage others from becoming physically fit? The mandatory "sports only" P.E. classes should be renamed "Athletics" or "Sports classes." (Yes, nonathletes should be forced to take "Athletics." Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? <sarcasm>) Let's dispense with the hypocrisy. "Physical education"? Aw, come on. There is none! What a joke! In all the years when I was required as a nonathletic boy to take mandatory P.E., I never so much as even heard the words "exercise program." I know, I know. I've said this all before, but I don't care. I didn't even know what exercise programs were. As an ignorant kid in his early teens, I needed to be educated in that regard -- in other words, told about exercise programs -- but, of course, the real purpose of mandatory P.E. was to promote sports, not physical fitness.

I've read comments made by those defending the sports culture saying that sports are needed to make people healthier. Baloney! A sport is a contest, not a physical fitness program; and some sports are actually unhealthy, as some of the injuries can last a lifetime. For what purpose? To provide entertainment for the masses. If a guy wants to participate in a sport, great. I mean that sincerely. That's his choice. But the quickest, safest, and most efficient way to get into shape is by getting on an exercise program. Any medical doctor would tell you that.

[Fat Man]

As we all know . . . . .

SPORTS PROMOTE PHYSICAL FITNESS!

Just take a look at these fine examples of physical fitness.







Yeah, Sports is good for you!

NOW HIT THE GRIDIRON BOYS AND LETS GET INTO SHAPE!!!

Yeah! Just like the guys in the photos above!

[i_like_1981]

Once again, a great opportunity for debate comes around when I've neglected to check up on the forums for a week. How stupid can I be at times? Well, I might as well submit my response to the original poster, even though I think his work is done on here.

I myself definitely don't believe that sports alone make a person bad or "evil", as HanShotFirst put it. But what I do feel is that participating in sports does contribute to an inflated ego and a heightened sense of aggression, which is definitely not true for all people who participate in them, but more than a few, I would say. Sports are overhyped in today's society, and I'm sure you can agree with me on that to some extent. The professional league players are paid more money for one game than your average citizen gets paid in a year of work. We have high schools all around the world that are geared towards promoting the athletic and allowing the unathletic to go tormented and harassed by bullies, which is completely unacceptable, as the unathletic ones are often the ones who excel more in academics, whose minds should be getting nurtured in an academic institution. Sports players have incredible amounts of prestige placed upon them for doing something that is really only a trivial activity (kicking or throwing a ball etc.). They are somehow respected and loved by everyone. They are allowed to have any girl they want as a partner and even, as I've seen on the news many times this year with players of our national football squad, cheat on their partners and get away with it. They are raised to the status of being idols of the nation. Do you honestly feel this is fair treatment for people whose contributions to the betterment of society as a whole are insignificant compared to those of others; other people who work harder for less and are not getting their achievements acknowledged on such a grand scale? I have no problem with people playing sports, or the sports themselves, but I have an immense problem with the incredible hype that is built up around sports and how our modern society has turned these games into the pursuit of gods. And it gets worse - society has turned sports into the only apparently "normal" way for boys to go. Most males who actively display a contempt for sports are sure to be labelled as gay or pathetic at some point. Why should this happen? I am not pleased at a world that would make such a big deal out of something that is supposed to be just a leisure activity for people to enjoy, and if people are getting harassed for not sharing these same interests, it only increases my contempt for the interests as a whole, and makes me wonder what is so important about it.

If you read my posts, you will see that I'm mostly mad at how big a deal society has made out of these "fun games" and that people are suffering for not liking these "fun games". I admit that I do stereotype on occasions, because I find the concept of it all absurd. Why should a man who's good at throwing a ball around be treated better than somebody who isn't but has more constructive and intellectual interests instead? But it happens. And this seems to be the only forum around that sees the absurdity of it.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[Earl]

Hi, i_like_1981. I'm glad you've posted.

Once again, a great opportunity for debate comes around when I've neglected to check up on the forums for a week. How stupid can I be at times?

Don't sweat it. Sometimes I don't keep up with people's posts -- even though I should, since I'm a moderator.

[Ex fan]

There is nothing wrong with playing rugby, football of either kind, cricket, etc, and no one on here would suggest all sportsmen should be gassed as there are millions at the amateur and lower levels of their sports who enjoy what they do and aren't in it for the money. However, it is the way some people who play sports are only in it for the money, the way a lot of sports now dominate television and conversations( living in a football and rugby league part of England it gets tiresome) and the way some sports fans treat non fans as geeks, queers and outsiders.
OK I did follow football for a while, but got heartily sick of the 24/7 overkill with it, the greed of the clubs, who demand even £ 20 to watch a minor game, and the greed and arrogance of the players. Going back 30 years football was a Saturday afternoon thing with only highlights late at night on BBC1 and live games were a rare and decent treat on the television. You read about the games on a Sunday morning in the paper and that was it until the following Saturday. However, things changed in the nineties: there are now at least three games on a Sunday, a night game on a Monday and a whole host of made for TV tournaments during the week. The overkill has become too much and other topics of conversation are hard to come by when some tedious 0-0 draw is being shown on a pub television.